Former Duke Coaches

[DrKlahn]

A place to talk about the post-coaching endeavors of people like Vic Bubas, Bill Foster, etc. and media coverage of the same.

 

[Devilsforlife]

I think it would be fun to revisit the GOAT debate with K’s career officially in the books.

Mike Krzyzewski - Schools: Army (1975-1980), Duke (1980-2022) - Overall record: 1202-368 - 15 ACC Tournaments, 13 ACC Regular Seasons, 13 Final Fours, 5 National Championships, 9 title game appearances, 101 NCAAT wins

K put together an absurd resume, clearly the best in the modern era. 7 Final Fours in 9 years from 1986-1994 is a run I doubt we will see again (Calipari came the closest with 5 in 8 from 08-15). Had a 36 year span between Final Fours, and won national titles 24 years apart. 5 championships is the second most all-time, with no other post-1970s coach winning more than three. K had his flaws, which were felt particularly acutely in his last 7 years, but I don’t think staying on so long hurt his legacy, as he racked up 200 more wins and added an additional Final Four to break the tie with Wooden. All his tournament runs came during the 64-68 team era, where it was much harder to go deep.

John Wooden - Schools: Indiana State (1946-1948), UCLA (1948-1975) - Overall record: 664-162, 18 Pac 10 titles, 12 Final Fours, 10 National Championships

Wooden’s record of 10 national titles will never be broken. He deserves tremendous credit for building up a UCLA program that had zero tradition prior to his arrival, but once he got rolling he had the advantages of playing in a fucking terrible conference, an enormous talent advantage as legends such as Bill Walton and Lew Alcindor played three years of CBB, and a 25 team NCAAT that was divided regionally (i.e. Beating New Mexico State and Nevada earned you a spot in the Final Four). There simply wasn’t much parity back then, and had Wooden coached later on, I’d imagine his resume would look more like K’s at best.

Adolph Rupp - Schools: Kentucky (1930-1972) - Overall record: 876-190, 13 SEC Tournaments, 28 SEC Regular Seasons, 6 Final Fours, 4 National Championships, 5 title game appearances

Rupp spent 42 years on the Kentucky sidelines, same as K at Duke. His four titles were all in the segregation era between 1948-1958, and he only made one Final Four in his last 14 years of coaching. K had the better resume even before, but Rupp was truly knocked out of the debate when he won #5 in 2015.

Bob Knight - Schools: Army (1965-1971), Indiana (1971-2000), Texas Tech (2001-2008) - Overall record: 902-371, 11 Big Ten Regular Seasons, 5 Final Fours, 3 National Championships

Without Knight, there is no K. Captured three titles at Indiana from 1976-1987, and led the sport’s last undefeated team in ‘76. Notorious asshole who failed to make a Final Four in the last 15 years of his career, the decline was stark, though he did put Texas Tech on the map in the 2000s. Held the all-time wins record until K broke it in 2011.

Roy Williams - Schools: Kansas (1988-2003), UNC (2003-2021), Overall record: 903-264, 8 Big Eight/12 Regular Seasons, 3 Big Eight/12 Tournaments, 9 ACC Regular Seasons, 3 ACC Tournaments, 9 Final Fours, 3 National Championships, 6 title game appearances, 79 NCAAT wins

Roy’s resume is more impressive than Knight’s overall, but still weaker than K’s. The game really passed him by the last few years too, but he had a great career and probably should have won it all in 2003, losing to Syracuse by 3 in a game where Kansas shot 12/30 (!!!) from the line. Needed very good fortune to win the 2017 title, on the other hand, so 3 rings feels about right.

Dean Smith - Schools: UNC (1961-1997), Overall record: 879-254, 17 ACC Regulär Seasons, 13 ACC Tournaments, 11 Final Fours, 2 National Championships, 5 title game appearances

Deano was the king of Tobacco Road for much of his career, but somehow only won two national titles after making it to 11 Final Fours. Had he sealed the deal a couple more times, he’d be right up there in the GOAT debate, but he didn’t.

Jim Calhoun - Schools: Northeastern (1972-1986), UConn (1986-2012), Overall record: 873-380, 10 Big East Regular Seasons, 7 Big East Tournaments, 4 Final Fours, 3 National Championships

Calhoun may honestly have the best argument in the race after K/Wooden. He built a UConn program that had never been relevant outside of the Northeast into a power, captured 3 titles, and pretty much had K’s number. I’d even be inclined to give him half a title for UConn’s 2014 run, a team filled with his old players, led by a coach who crashed and burned immediately after they departed.

Honorable Mentions: Rick Pitino - if he wasn’t an idiot, he would probably be in the mix too. His Kentucky teams were fearsome in the 1990s, and had he hunkered down there for several decades instead of making the ill-fated leap to the NBA, I could have seen him winning 3-5 titles. Only has 2 as it stands, with the second one at Louisville being vacated due to an escort scandal. There’s a chance he may have had a final run in him in the ‘Ville too, if not for that further stupidity.

Denny Crum - Won two titles and reached six Final Fours at Louisville. Beat Duke in the final in that 1986 heartbreaker.

Tom Izzo - If the season ended in March, he would likely be the GOAT. Fifth all time with eight Final Fours, but only one title (Anus of April, lol).

Jim Boeheim - How could you not include a man who will likely Coach until he is 100?

John Calipari - His run from 2008-2015 was extremely impressive, with 5 FFs in 8 years. Some brutal chokes in the FF, though, and he’s never been the same since losing that shot at 40-0 in 2015.

Jay Wright - He has been the best coach in college basketball the last seven years, making three FFs and capturing two titles. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t win another at this point.

Bill Self - He churns out top 15 teams year after year, and now has two rings. Another coach I expect to win a third before he retires.

 

[Slap the Floor]

the thing about K is that he had sustained excellence that no one else can match. Maybe the two closest are Roy and Dean. Duke was, for most of K’s tenure, a legitimate Final Four threat that lived in the top 10 almost every season. Other coaches had a bunch of years where they were good but not a realistic threat to reach Final Fours. This is where I think Calhoun belongs. I think he’s a sore spot for Duke fans because of 1999 and 2004, but his Final Four luck should be noted. The guy won 3 National Championships in 4 tries. That’s absurd. He’s an all-time great coach, but I think the number of Final Fours you make is really a representative of how strong you were consistently in a crapshoot single elimination tournament. K went 13 times, Dean went 11, and Roy 9. IMO it’s that sustained excellence that separates them from Calhoun.

Pitino is truly the biggest “what-if”. He’s been to the Final Four 7 times, and went with three different schools! He’s not in the GOAT conversation because of his stupidity off the court which really damaged his opportunities for more success, but if he ever takes Iona to a Final Four I think he has to surpass Roy and Dean. 8 Final Fours at 4 different schools- including Providence and Iona- 2 titles and just being able to win at the highest level everywhere.

Removing my anti UNC feelings, Roy had an incredible career and if he ever adjusted with the times and not fallen off a cliff at the end I think he could’ve made it possible to challenge K, because objectively, since he got to UNC in 2003 he had more success than K did in the same period. He won 3 titles to K’s 2, he had 5 Final Fours to K’s 3. Roy was very good at Kansas, he was great at UNC.

removing Wooden, K is the GOAT and it’s not difficult to argue for. The other component here which can’t be measured in achievements, is that K and Duke were the brand in the sport for like 25 years. Idk exactly when it started when Duke became the clear and away #1 brand but I imagine it began between 1999-2001 and then just accelerated when K took over Team USA. Duke was elite in the early 90’s but they were a plucky underdog that hadn’t won it until 91-92, and there was the decline after 94. Again I wasn’t following but I imagine 1999-2001 is when the Duke brand was solidified as #1, and K carried that. He was the premier coach and the premier program- that matters too.

 

[Devilsforlife]

Counterpoint with Calhoun: he may have made more deep runs had he coached at an already established program, as Dean/Roy did.

 

[Slap the Floor]

Counterpoint with Calhoun: he may have made more deep runs had he coached at an already established program, as Dean/Roy did.

for most of his career UCONN was established once he got them off the ground.

 

[LastHearth]

I don't count Wooden and Rupp because they were in a different era. They were great in their era but you can't compare them to modern 64 team era.
Comparing titles to Wooden is like pitchers in baseball comparing Wins and IP with Walter Johnson and Cy Young. Nobody is going put up those win numbers in baseball ever again.

In the modern era K is number one without dispute, the only ones close are Calhoun and Pitino. Both had the ability and might have been able to put together similar numbers had things been different for them.
For Pitino, it's his sojourn to the NBA, twice. Because he's always chasing the next thing. Also he's a northeast kind of guy and probably preferred to live in NY or Boston, had he stayed in college, or even stayed at Kentucky, he would've been a legend with 3 or 4 titles and double digit FFs.
For Calhoun, he simply spent too long of his career at Northeastern. He spend 14 years there, and 6 of his last 7 years there, he won the regular season title, and 5 of those 7 years he won both the regular and the conference tournament. If that happened today he would've had a better job offer long before that, probably after 2 straight regular season and conference tournament he would have been able to jump, and he would have at least 5 more seasons of his prime coaching at a top line school. K really lucked out that he was hired at Duke from Army. I think part of the reason Calhoun always had a chip on his shoulder about K is because from his perspective he was as good as K but not nearly as fortunate.

 

[rome8180]

Another point to make on Wooden: he existed in an era where pay-for-play was completely rampant and unregulated. At least now, you have to conceal it and there's a limit to what you can get away with.

 

[Devilsforlife]

On the subject of former Duke coaches, I’ve always felt that Vic Bubas gets underrated. Coached at Duke from 1960-69 and made three Final Fours between 63-66. Only 42 when he retired. I wonder if he’d have broken through had he coached another 5-10 years. Bill Foster also reached the title game in ‘78, losing a close one to Kentucky.

If given the choice between a 6th title under K and one before him, I’d probably go for the latter. There’s this perception of Duke as a ”one coach program” among many, and having a prior ring would have completely neutered it. We didn’t win our first title until our ninth Final Four, kind of insane to look back at.

 

[rome8180]

Yeah, it's kind of reassuring that Duke has actually been pretty damn good at hiring the right coach. You look at UNC and see Dean, Roy, and Hubert, with only a brief blip of Guthridge and Doherty, and you wonder how they've been so lucky in their coaching hires. But there's historical reason to believe Duke will continue to stay relevant as well.

 

[DrKlahn]

The thing that sets K apart for me is that he did all of those things while also coaching the national team through 3 Olympic cycles, winning all 3 Olympics and two Worlds, basically turning USAB into a college program with its own ethos and culture, and making international ball cool to the LeBron generation.

You could argue that the USA would have won anyway with all of that talent, and I would be willing to meet you about 70-80% of the way on that. You could point out that some of the other coaches on that list also coached the Olympic team and won during their careers. But to basically take on a second job and do it that well for over a decade, for me that’s the “by the way Babe Ruth also pitched” part of the argument.

 

[Devilsforlife]

Yeah, it's kind of reassuring that Duke has actually been pretty damn good at hiring the right coach. You look at UNC and see Dean, Roy, and Hubert, with only a brief blip of Guthridge and Doherty, and you wonder how they've been so lucky in their coaching hires. But there's historical reason to believe Duke will continue to stay relevant as well.

Since the 1920s when Eddie Cameron started coaching, I’d say our only truly bad hires were Bucky Waters and Neil McGeachy in the ‘70s.

Guthridge even made two Final Fours in his three years at UNC. He was old and nothing more than a placeholder coach, but he did fairly well during his brief stint.

 

[rome8180]

Yeah, I shouldn't have included Guthridge. Those were Dean's players, though, right?

 

[aiw]

The 2000 team had Ed Cota as a senior and Haywood as a junior, so Haywood would have been recruited by, but never played for Dean. Everyone else of note was a freshman or a sophomore (Forte, Lang, Peppers, Curry). That team also was not good, but got on a roll at the right time.

 

[Devilsforlife]

2000 UNC was even an 8 seed, just like 2022. Eerily similar, but ‘00 lost one round earlier.

 

[rome8180]

As I've said elsewhere, 95-03 is my weakest era of basketball knowledge. I got way more into playing music, smoking weed, watching arty movies, traveling to foreign countries, writing, etc. I didn't even live in the US for most of 2003. I remember the '99 title game, the 2001 Final Four, and very little else. For some reason when I came back to hardcore Duke fandom in 2004, I was 10 times the fan I'd been pre-95.

 

[rome8180]

I guess that's why you should take my Jay Will dislike with a grain of salt. I just know that when I watch the replays of the games through old jaded eyes now, I find his shot selection disgusting.

 

[rhfarmer]

He was a chucker, but when he was locked in on offense and defense, he was devastating.

 

[LastHearth]

He was a great player but also a knuckle-head.
The hit a 3 pointer while being fouled down 4 but misses the free throw to tie the game is the microcosm of his career.

 

[Hammy-O]

He was a great player but also a knuckle-head.
The hit a 3 pointer while being fouled down 4 but misses the free throw to tie the game is the microcosm of his career.

he also blew or almost blew games against FSU and UVA with free throws. I think against FSU he was 0-6 or something.

 

[aiw]

The team went 7-19 from the line in that 2002 FSU game.

Williams missed 6 in a row in the last 5 minutes, including 4 in the last minute and a half and 2 with 20 sec left that would have put Duke up 3.