Game Thread [2023-24] NC State (ACC Quarterfinals)

[bdotling]

Late response but there are many things Scheyer hasn’t coached well. I think a particular weakness of his are inbound plays and end of half/end of game situations. At the end of game today we looked clueless as what to do on offense. These weaknesses to me in discrete situations infers that he’s not strong tactically.

I also think Jon is slow to adjust to certain game plans like Zona sagging off Mitchell. Two other teams copied that exact formula in the games after and there was no counter to it. State did it again today and we got lucky Mitchell hit a couple 3s because otherwise it was quite effective. Maybe because it’s sticking with his guys to show that he trusts them? I don’t really know.

Last, I’m also starting to get concerned with player development. Obviously there have been some good successes in season like Lively last year but now I don’t know if that is frankly him just getting back from injury given how well he’s doing in the league. Our sophomores have been thoroughly disappointing. Not a single one is demonstrably better and/or more consistent than last year.

Obviously Scheyer has done well in other parts such as our over all defensive improvements but the three things I mention above are not small issues to be solved.

Fair post. The points in the first two paragraphs are very reasonable. I’ll have to chew on them a bit.

I think the questions around player development will be answered when Dereck Lively and potentially Jared McCain wind up being the only meaningful NBA contributors from Jon’s first two teams.

I don't agree with the take that Jon is bad at inbounds plays AT ALL. I felt the success rate on those was incredibly high and was probably the most effective thing he did coaching-wise. '

The end-of-half stuff I can agree with. And I'm not going go back and analyze an entire season's worth of inbounds plays, but I'm very convinced the results would back me up on the success rate.

Interesting - not sure why I have the opposite take on inbounds. I have memories of it leading to nothing or times especially at crucial moments where we have straight turned it over.

 

[bdotling]

I also don't agree with the player development point. Mark, Proctor, and Flip all had better seasons than last year on the whole. Lively got much better throughout the season last year. McCain got much better throughout the season this year, particularly at finishing in the lane against college comp. Roach made a massive jump from last year to this year. Maybe some of this would have happened regardless, but there was certainly enough that I can't count any of it against him.

I do agree with the in-game adjustments being slow.

I just don’t see it for Mark, Proctor and Flip. Yeah maybe on the whole they are more efficient due to having a bit better judgment/making less bone headed plays. But none of their respective glaring weaknesses got any better.

 

[physicsfactor]

Mark not correcting his jumper is such a glaring indictment on him, the coaches, or all of the above.

I’m not a coach, so I can’t say I have the answers on how Proctor could have improved his burst and strength with the ball while dribbling and finishing. Still needs a lot of work.

Flip is Flip. I’m not convinced you can do much with a guy like that other than to convince him to never try a spin move and where to take more efficient shots. But he’s a guy who is going to try to get his. I’m afraid the only way to curb that is to not play him.

 

[Pantone287]

On the other hand, Roach would have been a pretty incredible development story, given who is was pre-Jon, if he'd just retired after his injury this season.

Not really following you here. It's not like just because he got hurt, and his stats will end up lower than they could have been, that means he developed less.

That was kind of my point. People aren't very high on Roach right now because he's had a tough stretch since he got injured - which isn't completely irrelevant - but I'd still count him as a positive data point.

 

[Devilsforlife]

Late response but there are many things Scheyer hasn’t coached well. I think a particular weakness of his are inbound plays and end of half/end of game situations. At the end of game today we looked clueless as what to do on offense. These weaknesses to me in discrete situations infers that he’s not strong tactically.

I also think Jon is slow to adjust to certain game plans like Zona sagging off Mitchell. Two other teams copied that exact formula in the games after and there was no counter to it. State did it again today and we got lucky Mitchell hit a couple 3s because otherwise it was quite effective. Maybe because it’s sticking with his guys to show that he trusts them? I don’t really know.

Last, I’m also starting to get concerned with player development. Obviously there have been some good successes in season like Lively last year but now I don’t know if that is frankly him just getting back from injury given how well he’s doing in the league. Our sophomores have been thoroughly disappointing. Not a single one is demonstrably better and/or more consistent than last year.

Obviously Scheyer has done well in other parts such as our over all defensive improvements but the three things I mention above are not small issues to be solved.

Fair post. The points in the first two paragraphs are very reasonable. I’ll have to chew on them a bit.

I think the questions around player development will be answered when Dereck Lively and potentially Jared McCain wind up being the only meaningful NBA contributors from Jon’s first two teams.

I don't agree with the take that Jon is bad at inbounds plays AT ALL. I felt the success rate on those was incredibly high and was probably the most effective thing he did coaching-wise. '

The end-of-half stuff I can agree with. And I'm not going go back and analyze an entire season's worth of inbounds plays, but I'm very convinced the results would back me up on the success rate.

Interesting - not sure why I have the opposite take on inbounds. I have memories of it leading to nothing or times especially at crucial moments where we have straight turned it over.

Different people watch the games and have different takeaways. I haven’t noticed in bounds plays being a problem, either. I think the only things we can all agree on are Jon being slow to adjust at times and erring on not picking up a C in the portal. The end of half stuff is weird - I actually thought we were greatly improved there last year and it was something I was pleased about. Hopefully we’ll be better again going forward there.

 

[dukebluedevils05]

I watch other teams play and I’m blown away with how physical they are compared to us. Obviously we know Carolina bullied us both times, too. Watching Tennessee and Mississippi State right now and these teams are big, physical teams going at it. I was hopeful we would address that in the off-season after Tennessee bullied us in the tournament last year but I’m not sure we’ve improved much in that regard.

 

[krsmith16]

Duke wants to be a beautifully-choreographed ballet. Tenn/SEC is a mosh pit where only psychos would voluntarily participate.

 

[bdotling]

I watch other teams play and I’m blown away with how physical they are compared to us. Obviously we know Carolina bullied us both times, too. Watching Tennessee and Mississippi State right now and these teams are big, physical teams going at it. I was hopeful we would address that in the off-season after Tennessee bullied us in the tournament last year but I’m not sure we’ve improved much in that regard.

I don’t blame Jon for this. I think that’s a Flip issue, hard to change who you are around things like this

 

[dukebluedevils05]

I think that’s fair. College basketball has gotten so physical (one of its drawbacks IMO) and seems to trend more physical each season. Mississippi State was just abusing Tennessee inside.

 

[Devilsforlife]

This is just a small, soft, finesse team in the vein of 08. It’s become very apparent this week, and was against Clemson and in the first UNC game, too.

 

[DrKlahn]

And against Arizona