Game Thread [2023-24] NCAA Tournament

[CK86]

If K was still in charge i'd agree, but I think to narrow the horizon to only a championship or bust doesn't account for the context of our coaching situation. Scheyer getting to a Final Four in his first contract, when combined with the stellar recruiting and competitiveness within the top of the conference, essentially validates him as a worthy Blue Blood caliber successor and shuts down any narratives and question marks opposing coaches may try to use about his uncertain future. Even if they get blown out by Purdue or UCONN after that, it would be more than worth it

You're correct we need to reframe our thinking. I just haven't been able to do that yet. Part of me also falls back on the "eh I don't care THAT much about a FF without title, we just got there two years ago" but of course that wasn't with Scheyer.

It's still weird to me that a Final Four is considered so much more validating than an Elite Eight. Meanwhile, people (including people on this site) treat the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight as virtually identical.

I blame this mentality entirely on how successful Coach K was at getting to the Final Four if he got to the Elite 8. It always felt like the real hurdle to a Final Four berth was winning the Sweet 16 game because K just didn't lose those games if they got past the first gauntlet.

 

[StopThePumpFakesShav]

If K was still in charge i'd agree, but I think to narrow the horizon to only a championship or bust doesn't account for the context of our coaching situation. Scheyer getting to a Final Four in his first contract, when combined with the stellar recruiting and competitiveness within the top of the conference, essentially validates him as a worthy Blue Blood caliber successor and shuts down any narratives and question marks opposing coaches may try to use about his uncertain future. Even if they get blown out by Purdue or UCONN after that, it would be more than worth it

You're correct we need to reframe our thinking. I just haven't been able to do that yet. Part of me also falls back on the "eh I don't care THAT much about a FF without title, we just got there two years ago" but of course that wasn't with Scheyer.

It's still weird to me that a Final Four is considered so much more validating than an Elite Eight. Meanwhile, people (including people on this site) treat the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight as virtually identical.

It is an odd little aspect of CBB. Like nobody gives a shit about total number of appearances in: Conference Finals in the NBA, League Championship Series' in MLB, or Conference Championships the NFL.

I get the marketing aspect of the "Final 4" but in cold, hard number terms it is just a random marker between the 4th and 5th game out of 6 that you have to win.

 

[StopThePumpFakesShav]

College football is the only real comp but it's only been a handful of years with a 4 team CFP playoff and now that's done anyway.

 

[SeanMayTriedToEatMe]

I don’t personally consider a Final Four appearance to be meaningful at all, tbh.

Scheyer is either going to end Duke’s 5-game NCAAT losing streak against higher seeds tonight and avoid falling to 1-6 in his career as an underdog, which is great, or he’s going to lose as a sizable underdog to a significantly better team, which is not terrible. There are popular beliefs about what makes a good coach, and right or wrong, winning with a worse team is a prominent criterion. Getting this win is a great look, but winning the next one just because it gets Duke to a Final Four isn’t meaningful in my mind.

If Scheyer runs the Houston - Purdue - UConn gauntlet, his place as the generational wunderkind/prodigy will be secured, and the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks will likely come calling soon with $100M offers. The dinner among Scheyer, Brad Stevens and K to discuss Scheyer’s future would be like a meeting amongst the gods on Olympus. Short of that, it’s just progress toward getting his footing. Losing tonight to better players is what the best college coach of all time would’ve done anyway.

 

[Topher]

I don’t personally consider a Final Four appearance to be meaningful at all, tbh.

Scheyer is either going to end Duke’s 5-game NCAAT losing streak against higher seeds tonight and avoid falling to 1-6 in his career as an underdog, which is great, or he’s going to lose as a sizable underdog to a significantly better team, which is not terrible. There are popular beliefs about what makes a good coach, and right or wrong, winning with a worse team is a prominent criterion. Getting this win is a great look, but winning the next one just because it gets Duke to a Final Four isn’t meaningful in my mind.

If Scheyer runs the Houston - Purdue - UConn gauntlet, his place as the generational wunderkind/prodigy will be secured, and the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks will likely come calling soon with $100M offers. The dinner among Scheyer, Brad Stevens and K to discuss Scheyer’s future would be like a meeting amongst the gods on Olympus. Short of that, it’s just progress toward getting his footing. Losing tonight to better players is what the best college coach of all time would’ve done anyway.

K would say “Don’t ever forget this loss.”

 

[Grit]

If K was still in charge i'd agree, but I think to narrow the horizon to only a championship or bust doesn't account for the context of our coaching situation. Scheyer getting to a Final Four in his first contract, when combined with the stellar recruiting and competitiveness within the top of the conference, essentially validates him as a worthy Blue Blood caliber successor and shuts down any narratives and question marks opposing coaches may try to use about his uncertain future. Even if they get blown out by Purdue or UCONN after that, it would be more than worth it

You're correct we need to reframe our thinking. I just haven't been able to do that yet. Part of me also falls back on the "eh I don't care THAT much about a FF without title, we just got there two years ago" but of course that wasn't with Scheyer.

It's still weird to me that a Final Four is considered so much more validating than an Elite Eight. Meanwhile, people (including people on this site) treat the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight as virtually identical.

It is an odd little aspect of CBB. Like nobody gives a shit about total number of appearances in: Conference Finals in the NBA, League Championship Series' in MLB, or Conference Championships the NFL.

I get the marketing aspect of the "Final 4" but in cold, hard number terms it is just a random marker between the 4th and 5th game out of 6 that you have to win.

It's kind of interesting how the benchmarks end up being every other round. People care about qualifying for the field, don't care about R32, care about S16, don't care about E8, care about F4, don't care much more about championship appearance, and then obviously care most about winning it all.

I guess it makes more sense when you consider the pacing of the tournament. Elite 8 means you played two more days; final four means you made it to the final weekend and venue of the season.

FWIW I enjoy that college basketball has more things to care about and measure against than "rings."

 

[StopThePumpFakesShav]

My understanding is that it was in the late 70's that the TV Networks/NCAA began marketing it as the "Final 4" and calling all games leading up to it as "The Road to the Final 4."

 

[krsmith16]

Maybe because those final four teams won their respective regions, complete with cutting down nets and all, gives it a little more umph.

 

[DUKERULES14]

I think the venue change, plus it being the final weekend of the season, give making the FF the prestige it does. There also used to be consolation games determining the third place team, as well.

If the whole NCAA tournament was played in a week with no days off between games in the same location, it would have less prestige.

But the final weekend plus the week long buildup leading up to it is big time exposure and hype for the teams in it

 

[physicsfactor]

Maybe because those final four teams won their respective regions, complete with cutting down nets and all, gives it a little more umph.

Farmer probably could have told us, but there used to be more achievement tied to winning the “regional tournament” because conferences were literally tied to a region by geography. Then those regional winners advanced to the Final Four.

I swear up until very recently any team’s men’s basketball wiki page listed Regional Championships. Now it shows appearances in each round.

 

[rome8180]

Maybe because those final four teams won their respective regions, complete with cutting down nets and all, gives it a little more umph.

I get that, but I don't think any fanbase really puts value in "winning our region" as some kind of actual championship.

 

[rome8180]

I get all the historical and pomp-and-circumstance reasons, but it still just strikes me as slightly irrational. Maybe no more so than gauging the entire season on the results of a single elimination tournament is in the first place, though.

 

[SeanMayTriedToEatMe]

I don’t think anyone in the field can beat this NCSU team of destiny.

 

[rome8180]

I think UNC was just a bad matchup for this year's team. Great in transition and attacking the offensive boards while getting unexpected 'out of their mind' performances from role players. Just gave up too many easy points against them, fell behind early and had to fight like hell to try to get back into it.

I don't agree with this theory. Duke was a good defensive rebounding team this year while UNC was nowhere near the offensive rebounding force they were under Roy. They also pushed the pace less than they did under Roy. If anything, the gap between their strengths and our weaknesses have narrowed under the new coaches. Yes, we play significantly slower than them. But since when has that been an issue against UNC's secondary break? The team that's played them best historically, besides us, has been UVA.

Digging into it further, we had great personnel to slow down UNC's best player (Davis). And we effectively accomplished that. We also had the personnel to make Bacot uncomfortable in space, though his unexpected defensive improvements meant that didn't quite materialize. I think the issue was not the matchup but that we overemphasized slowing down Davis. You had tertiary players go off in both games, which I think speaks to that over-attention.

I also don't think you can underestimate how important this was to them. We were probably entering the games at a psychological disadvantage, though that really should have been erased after the first game.

 

[ZackM]

NC State to the Final 4

 

[DrKlahn]

What a time to be alive

 

[rome8180]

Teams keep doubling Burns for some reason.

 

[DrKlahn]

Dwyane Wade and Jimmy Butler couldn’t beat this NC State juggernaut

 

[aiw]

I don't know if I've ever seen a college ref team change a call from o foul to d foul after a review that they did to look for a flagrant on the o player

 

[rome8180]

Marquette gonna win.