NBA

[rome8180]

I look forward to rooting for the Celtics again. I loved them when KG was there.

Will love it if they get passed Cleveland but I don't see that happens to be perfectly honest

They
Not next year. Too young, not enough size, and not enough defense. The year after depends on Lebron and who both teams draft with their probable top 5 picks.

The Celtics won't have a top 5 pick....

They have the Lakers pick if it falls between spots 2-5. I guess that depends on how much you think the Lakers will improve this year.

 

[cameron06]

Will love it if they get passed Cleveland but I don't see that happens to be perfectly honest

They
Not next year. Too young, not enough size, and not enough defense. The year after depends on Lebron and who both teams draft with their probable top 5 picks.

The Celtics won't have a top 5 pick....

They have the Lakers pick if it falls between spots 2-5. I guess that depends on how much you think the Lakers will improve this year.

Totally forgot about that

 

[rome8180]

I'm worried that they see a drastic improvement with Ball though.

 

[childress22]

I'm worried that they see a drastic improvement with Ball though.

I think they'll improve with Ball, but not drastically this year. I have my doubts about his ability to quickly adjust to regular NBA defenses, especially without a lot of shooters around him.

 

[childress22]

I wonder if the Celts could sign Bogut for the minimum.

 

[CMon85]

Here is how I see the lineup's playing out.

Kyrie>Thomas
Smart<Rose
Hayward<Bron
Morris<Love
Horford>Thompson

Cavs are still the favorite in the East and I think they'll actually give GS a run for their money. They basically traded Kyrie for Jeff Green, Thomas, Crowder and Rose. The Cavs are now a very, very deep team. Shump, Smith, Korver, Green, Crowder, Calderon and Jefferson all off the bench. Now they can finally give Lebron some rest.


The more I think about it, the more I think Boston wanted to save Brown, Tatum and two of the other draft picks to make a big run at someone like Anthony Davis in a year. Hayward is 27, Kyrie 25. Those guys are about to enter their prime and they're not going to want to wait 3-4yrs for Bagley or Bamba to produce big numbers.

Think about it, they still have the LAL/SAC pick this year. Next year they have possibly the Sixers pick a long with the Grizzlies and Clippers. They give NO the LAL pick, two other picks and Brown or Tatum and they might have a shot at Davis.

 

[rome8180]

I'm worried that they see a drastic improvement with Ball though.

I think they'll improve with Ball, but not drastically this year. I have my doubts about his ability to quickly adjust to regular NBA defenses, especially without a lot of shooters around him.

Yeah, I don't think it will be this year either. But I'm not sure how many wins they would realistically have to add for their pick to fall outside of the top 5, but I'm guessing it's not many.

I think this draft will be so strong 1-10 that if the Celtics do get a top 5 pick it will be a player not much below Bagley. I mean, you're looking at something like:

1) Bagley
2) Porter
3) Doncic
4) Ayton
5) Bamba

Even if the order there is not right, that's a ton of good options 2-5. And that's not including guys like Sexton and Carter.

 

[childress22]

Here is how I see the lineup's playing out.


Think about it, they still have the LAL/SAC pick this year. Next year they have possibly the Sixers pick a long with the Grizzlies and Clippers. They give NO the LAL pick, two other picks and Brown or Tatum and they might have a shot at Davis.

I assume if they made any deal for Davis they'd have to include Horford. Boston can't have Kyrie making $20 million in 2018-19 and still have three other guys each making over $25 million.

 

[rome8180]

I would think the Celtics would select the best big man available with their 2-5 pick. They wouldn't want another PG, and Porter is a bit redundant with Tatum (even if he is better).

Personally, I'd go with Bamba if he's still there (I'm assuming Bagley won't be).

 

[torontoduke]

I really think the Celtics are better than the Cavs next season. IT isn't that good. He's certainly (imo) not as good as Kyrie when both are healthy. Kyrie has his flaws, but LeBron is going to miss Kyrie's elite level of getting buckets in tight post-season games.

I really think that the roster they have now assembled, along with having elite level coaching, that the Celtics are ahead of the Cavs. IT isn't as good as Kyrie. This deal is good for the Cavs long-term but I don't think it makes them any better next season. The Celtics added Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jayson Tatum, Marcus Morris and Jaylen Brown should be improved enough to contribute next season.

The Celtics added a lot. The Cavs added nothing and swapped Kyrie Irving for IT.

The Cavaliers will have probably the #1 picks back to back seasons, but they will still be completely starting from scratch. That roster is about to completely implode. IT and LeBron are both leaving. Dan Gilbert is not well liked, and Cleveland isn't a desirable place to play. We will see what happens to Cleveland even with almost guaranteed back to back to 3 picks. It should be noted that before LeBron James they were shit, and after LeBron James they were shit. The only reason they won is because he returned- and he's going to leave again.

You're ignoring the single biggest thing in the trade for Cleveland which was getting Crowder. Crowder is a top 75 player in the league and one of the few true 3 and D players in the league that can check 2-4.

Secondly, Irving is better than Thomas, but it's not the difference you are making it to be. They're both legitimate All Stars. It's not like Thomas was scoring his points inefficiently.

Per 36
Irving 26 per game on 47% and 40% from 3 with 6.0 assists
Thomas 31 per game on 46% and 38% from 3 with 6.3 assists

Advanced
Irving usage 30.8
23.0 PER
.170 WS/48
2.5 BPM
Thomas usage 34.0
26.5 PER
.234 WS/48
5.4 BPM

Playoffs
Irving 26 and 5 on 47% shooting
Thomas 24 and 7 on 43% shooting

Both are awful defensively, Thomas is just probably the worst in the league instead of being like Irving as one of the worst.

Point being, Celtics upgraded, but it's not some sort of huge leap for the 2017-2018 season.


Lastly, for those touting Tatum. I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe he will be much better than Jabari or Ingram were in their rookie seasons. Both of which were average players at best. Tatum posted some great numbers in the summer league, but a lot it was done in isolation on some high degree of difficulty shots. Shots he isn't going to be getting for the Celtics as a young player with Hayward and Irving on the roster.

Have the Celtics shrunk the gap between them and Cleveland, absolutely. As long as LeBron doesn't pull a 2010 playoffs where he's on his way out, then the Cavs are still a drastically better team than Boston in 2018.

I have had to pump the brakes on my Tatum love-fest (previous 2 pages of this thread have some responses to what I thought he could bring to the table in 17/18). I think he will be much better than Ingram his rookie year for two reasons: 1 - he is more physically ready for the league; 2 - IMO there was a lot more pressure on Ingram to contribute offensively in his situation. There will not be that degree of pressure on JT, as a result of the other offensive options you pointed out.

JT is not the scorer Jabari was but I think he can contribute a more balanced game in his 1st year than Jabari could.

 

[childress22]

I would think the Celtics would select the best big man available in that scenario. They wouldn't want another PG, and Porter is a bit redundant with Tatum (even if he is better).

It'll be interesting to see how Ayton shapes up as a pro prospect. Rim protection, 7'5" wingspan, rebounding, also not particularly athletic and questions about his motor. Sounds like a Top-5 lock in 2001 (whazzup, DeSagana), but I think he'll have to show good lateral quickness/switching to go that high next year.

Wendell is two inches shorter, and "only" has a 7'3" wingspan, but I imagine the skill level differential will help him get picked ahead of Ayton.

 

[rome8180]

Wendell is projected at #8 right now. It wouldn't be a stretch to see him at #5 or higher. However, I do think he's smaller than his listed size. That could hurt.

 

[DurhamSon]

Here is how I see the lineup's playing out.

Kyrie>Thomas
Smart<Rose
Hayward<Bron
Morris<Love
Horford>Thompson

Cavs are still the favorite in the East and I think they'll actually give GS a run for their money. They basically traded Kyrie for Jeff Green, Thomas, Crowder and Rose. The Cavs are now a very, very deep team. Shump, Smith, Korver, Green, Crowder, Calderon and Jefferson all off the bench. Now they can finally give Lebron some rest.


The more I think about it, the more I think Boston wanted to save Brown, Tatum and two of the other draft picks to make a big run at someone like Anthony Davis in a year. Hayward is 27, Kyrie 25. Those guys are about to enter their prime and they're not going to want to wait 3-4yrs for Bagley or Bamba to produce big numbers.

Think about it, they still have the LAL/SAC pick this year. Next year they have possibly the Sixers pick a long with the Grizzlies and Clippers. They give NO the LAL pick, two other picks and Brown or Tatum and they might have a shot at Davis.

Rose is absolutely not better than Smart right now. At minimum Smart is a one way player, while rose is a zero-way player.

And the C's don't care about waiting 3-4 years for development from their prospects because those years still belong to GS/LebBron. It's not like a 28-29 year old Kyrie, and 30 year old Hayward would be decrepit.

 

[torontoduke]

I somehow missed that Jon Givony joined ESPN - the end of D-X

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/the-end-of-an-era-6070/

 

[torontoduke]

^If only Marcus could shoot. He is one of the toughest guys in the league, which almost makes up for it.

 

[torontoduke]

"Where does the Irving trade leave the Celtics right now? You could argue, thanks to Crowder, that the deal actually made the Cavs a better, more balanced team. Boston will be a top-two team in the East this season, same as it was last season. The Celtics still won’t be favored in a playoff series against the Cavs. Moving forward, Boston becomes the favorites in the East if LeBron leaves next summer. But Irving doesn’t make them as much of a threat to the Warriors as Butler or George would have."

I agree with everything written in the 1st part of that paragraph; however, how does Butler pose a bigger threat to the Warriors than KI?

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/08/23/celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-trade-isaiah-thomas-danny-ainge

 

[CMon85]

Here is how I see the lineup's playing out.


Think about it, they still have the LAL/SAC pick this year. Next year they have possibly the Sixers pick a long with the Grizzlies and Clippers. They give NO the LAL pick, two other picks and Brown or Tatum and they might have a shot at Davis.

I assume if they made any deal for Davis they'd have to include Horford. Boston can't have Kyrie making $20 million in 2018-19 and still have three other guys each making over $25 million.

Agree. I wonder if something like Brown, Bagley/Porter/Bamba, the 2019 lotto pick and Horford could get Davis.

 

[CMon85]

I really think the Celtics are better than the Cavs next season. IT isn't that good. He's certainly (imo) not as good as Kyrie when both are healthy. Kyrie has his flaws, but LeBron is going to miss Kyrie's elite level of getting buckets in tight post-season games.

I really think that the roster they have now assembled, along with having elite level coaching, that the Celtics are ahead of the Cavs. IT isn't as good as Kyrie. This deal is good for the Cavs long-term but I don't think it makes them any better next season. The Celtics added Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jayson Tatum, Marcus Morris and Jaylen Brown should be improved enough to contribute next season.

The Celtics added a lot. The Cavs added nothing and swapped Kyrie Irving for IT.

The Cavaliers will have probably the #1 picks back to back seasons, but they will still be completely starting from scratch. That roster is about to completely implode. IT and LeBron are both leaving. Dan Gilbert is not well liked, and Cleveland isn't a desirable place to play. We will see what happens to Cleveland even with almost guaranteed back to back to 3 picks. It should be noted that before LeBron James they were shit, and after LeBron James they were shit. The only reason they won is because he returned- and he's going to leave again.

You're ignoring the single biggest thing in the trade for Cleveland which was getting Crowder. Crowder is a top 75 player in the league and one of the few true 3 and D players in the league that can check 2-4.

Secondly, Irving is better than Thomas, but it's not the difference you are making it to be. They're both legitimate All Stars. It's not like Thomas was scoring his points inefficiently.

Per 36
Irving 26 per game on 47% and 40% from 3 with 6.0 assists
Thomas 31 per game on 46% and 38% from 3 with 6.3 assists

Advanced
Irving usage 30.8
23.0 PER
.170 WS/48
2.5 BPM
Thomas usage 34.0
26.5 PER
.234 WS/48
5.4 BPM

Playoffs
Irving 26 and 5 on 47% shooting
Thomas 24 and 7 on 43% shooting

Both are awful defensively, Thomas is just probably the worst in the league instead of being like Irving as one of the worst.

Point being, Celtics upgraded, but it's not some sort of huge leap for the 2017-2018 season.


Lastly, for those touting Tatum. I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe he will be much better than Jabari or Ingram were in their rookie seasons. Both of which were average players at best. Tatum posted some great numbers in the summer league, but a lot it was done in isolation on some high degree of difficulty shots. Shots he isn't going to be getting for the Celtics as a young player with Hayward and Irving on the roster.

Have the Celtics shrunk the gap between them and Cleveland, absolutely. As long as LeBron doesn't pull a 2010 playoffs where he's on his way out, then the Cavs are still a drastically better team than Boston in 2018.

I have had to pump the brakes on my Tatum love-fest (previous 2 pages of this thread have some responses to what I thought he could bring to the table in 17/18). I think he will be much better than Ingram his rookie year for two reasons: 1 - he is more physically ready for the league; 2 - IMO there was a lot more pressure on Ingram to contribute offensively in his situation. There will not be that degree of pressure on JT, as a result of the other offensive options you pointed out.

JT is not the scorer Jabari was but I think he can contribute a more balanced game in his 1st year than Jabari could.

Parker averaged 12pts and 6rebs for his rookie season. I think Tatum has less rebounds, lower fg%, more scoring and a higher 3pt%.

Parker was 12pts, 5.5rebs, 1.7asts, 49%fg, 25% 3pt.
Tatum IMO will be around 13pts, 4.5rebs, 1.5asts, 42-45%fg, 34-36%3pt. In contention for ROY but probably comes in second or third.

 

[SeanMayTriedToEatMe]

I don't think the Celtics would be very competitive with the Warriors even if they traded for Davis, which is why I think they would strongly prefer to wait out the next few seasons to see who becomes available and what their draft picks end up as. No reason to limit options/window just to get blasted in the Finals. Irving instead of Thomas allows them to expand their window.

Irving, Smart, Hayward, some cheap veteran, Davis is still much, much, much worse than what the Warriors will have, assuming the Celtics need to give up at least Tatum and Brown for Davis, and throw in Horford to make the salaries work. For overall offense and defense, that Celtics lineup would be inferior in every matchup except Davis vs. Draymond, and even that is not a huge advantage for Davis, considering the roles those two guys would have on their teams and the fact that Davis would be drawn away from the rim on defense. And against the non-death lineup, JaVale McGee put up elite numbers in low minutes (as would any decent giant in the Warriors starting lineup), so the Warriors don't suffer much in any matchup.

 

[DurhamSon]

Here is how I see the lineup's playing out.


Think about it, they still have the LAL/SAC pick this year. Next year they have possibly the Sixers pick a long with the Grizzlies and Clippers. They give NO the LAL pick, two other picks and Brown or Tatum and they might have a shot at Davis.

I assume if they made any deal for Davis they'd have to include Horford. Boston can't have Kyrie making $20 million in 2018-19 and still have three other guys each making over $25 million.

Agree. I wonder if something like Brown, Bagley/Porter/Bamba, the 2019 lotto pick and Horford could get Davis.

They won't get Bagley/Porter/Bamba and the 2019 pick. It's a rollover, such that if it isn't in the 2-5 range in 2018, only then does it turn into a 2019 lotto pick. If it does land in the 2-5 range this year, then that's it. They don't get it in 2019.

They do own a Memphis pick in 2019 if it conveys outside the top 8 that year, so if Memphis ends up in the lottery, that's something. But they would probably hope that it doesn't convey until 2021, where it would then be unprotected, and you would hope Memphis is in the basement rebuilding by then. That or they could use it as a trade chip.


IIRC Horford and Hayward's contracts both are up in 2020, so if one of Brown and/or Tatum looks to me emerging, they can let one or both - of hayward/horford - go and free up the cap room to bring in another big free agent more on their timeline.