Player Cameron Reddish

[deepdarkblue]

Yeah, if Frank Jackson and Grayson Allen aren't athletic then I don't know what athletic is. And neither do NBA scouts, apparently, since that's a word they use often to describe both players.

Allen is an overrated athlete. He's a good athlete don't get me wrong, white kids that can jump are always viewed as athletic freaks. He has a great first step and obviously jumps well, and i think he has good explosion off of his jump. He has horrible body control in the air, which is partly impacted because he plays with zero pace, and this overall negatively impacts his ability to finish around the rim against bigger players.

I personally view offensive athleticism and defensive athleticism as two separate things. Defensively Allen has long arms which is nice, but he's really slow laterally, especially after his initial first two steps, he lags. He is consistently beat off of the dribble. To be fair, Allen plays very hard defensively.

If you want to look at elite athletes defensively look no further than Louisville. They are the standard at least to me in recruiting elite level athletes on defense. I actually think Duke and UL are polar opposites in that regard. Duke IMO has always been the model for recruiting offensive talent and skill. Pitino recruits guys who can't shoot for shit and have low offensive IQ's but goodness he recruits savages to unleash defensively. Jim Calhoun used to be like this. Maybe not to the extent Pitino currently is doing (he's increased it in recent years) but similar philosophies recruiting wise.

Or maybe the offensive and defensive athletes basically the same, but the coaching is different.

 

[rome8180]

I debate the idea that Allen has "horrible body control." In fact, I think exactly the opposite is true. Just watch his offensive highlights at Duke. We've had only a handful of guys ever who can do some of the things he does. His finishing dropped off last year, mostly due to injury. But in his first two years, he shot 50% on twos. That's all two-point shots, so I'd wager his finishing at the rim is much higher. That doesn't sound like a bad finisher to me. That was a dumb narrative written because he struggled against UK in like his fifth game as an impact player. He also played great against UL and UNC and some other teams with length.

 

[rome8180]

Also, against the "offensive" and "defensive athletes" theory, I would ask what kind of "defensive athletes" 2010 Duke had that allowed them to have the #5 defense. It seems more like they had great size and experience and played a style of defense more suited to this era than overplay.

Or if you don't like that example I'd bring up Tim Duncan in his final year in the NBA. He had the best DBPM in the league. Did this 40-year-old somehow preserve his "defensive athleticism," or was it more that he was a savvy, experienced guy with great size and natural defensive instincts playing in a great system?

 

[rome8180]

Another part of our defensive struggles that hasn't been mentioned here: going small. Another team that nearly always goes small? ND. Their defensive results are worse than ours. Heck, the poor defensive rebounding alone probably takes us down 20+ spots.

 

[rhfarmer]

@rome8180 Although when we go small, we are frequently trotting out a 6'8 4 (Tatum), a 6'5 or 6'6 "3" (Jones, Allen, Kennard).

 

[rome8180]

True. And I should add I am not saying that going small always results in bad defense. Nor does going big automatically cure defensive woes.

 

[torontoduke]

 

[Slap the Floor]

Also, against the "offensive" and "defensive athletes" theory, I would ask what kind of "defensive athletes" 2010 Duke had that allowed them to have the #5 defense. It seems more like they had great size and experience and played a style of defense more suited to this era than overplay.

Or if you don't like that example I'd bring up Tim Duncan in his final year in the NBA. He had the best DBPM in the league. Did this 40-year-old somehow preserve his "defensive athleticism," or was it more that he was a savvy, experienced guy with great size and natural defensive instincts playing in a great system?

I'm not arguing that a defense can't be good without elite athletes.

 

[childress22]

If you want to look at elite athletes defensively look no further than Louisville. They are the standard at least to me in recruiting elite level athletes on defense. I actually think Duke and UL are polar opposites in that regard. Duke IMO has always been the model for recruiting offensive talent and skill. Pitino recruits guys who can't shoot for shit and have low offensive IQ's but goodness he recruits savages to unleash defensively. Jim Calhoun used to be like this. Maybe not to the extent Pitino currently is doing (he's increased it in recent years) but similar philosophies recruiting wise.

Yeah, you're still saying "athletes" but describing to, me, skills. I think most of Louisville's bigs haven't been particularly athletic (Dieng, Mahmoud), but they both see the floor well defensively (and, in their cases, also happen to have long arms, which doesn't hurt).

I don't think players have different athletic abilities governing their lateral quickness on offense vs their lateral quickness on defense.

 

[bdotling]

You just need a baseline of athletic skill. After that a lot of it is just anticipation and awareness, both of which improve with reps and greater comfort in the system

 

[rome8180]

Also, against the "offensive" and "defensive athletes" theory, I would ask what kind of "defensive athletes" 2010 Duke had that allowed them to have the #5 defense. It seems more like they had great size and experience and played a style of defense more suited to this era than overplay.

Or if you don't like that example I'd bring up Tim Duncan in his final year in the NBA. He had the best DBPM in the league. Did this 40-year-old somehow preserve his "defensive athleticism," or was it more that he was a savvy, experienced guy with great size and natural defensive instincts playing in a great system?

I'm not arguing that a defense can't be good without elite athletes.

And I am arguing that defensive athleticism, if it exists, doesn't seem to have much to do with good defense one way or the other. Andrew Wiggins would be a poster child for the kind of defensive athleticism you're talking about: lateral quickness, quick twitch muscles. Yet he still grades out poorly on that end. It seems to have to do more with effort, experience, coaching, the defensive scheme, your teammates, and having a brain for that end of the floor.

 

[SeanMayTriedToEatMe]

Another interesting data point to compare, along with Calipari's freshmen, is Team USA under K.

I couldn't find much on Team USA defensive efficiency in the few seconds I looked. This is the best information I saw for the 2016 team, which included Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Paul George, Draymond Green, DeAndre Jordan and Klay Thompson.

http://www.espn.com/olympics/basket...ing-ranking-every-olympic-men-basketball-team

Close games in the Olympics for Team USA are not new. The new part is seeing Team USA scramble in the fourth quarter in three straight games, which suggests the group is making little progress in the wake of each scare.

Throughout their first few weeks together, several of the American stars spoke repeatedly about how much they enjoyed playing defense, but major slippage at the un-fun end against Australia, Serbia and France dropped them to a hard-to-fathom fifth overall in the competition in terms of defensive efficiency entering the medal round.

The alarm bells, not surprisingly, are thus ringing pretty loudly, amid a growing belief in basketball circles that this squad -- by all accounts far stronger than the group that dominated the 2014 FIBA World Cup in Spain and still a 1-to-20 runaway favorite, according to the Westgate Las Vegas SuperBook -- could actually lose. I still say they end up grabbing gold, but it's looking more and more as if it'll have to be the offense that carries Team USA over the line.

5th out of 12 teams. Yes, we can assume Team USA put in less effort in the group stage than other teams. I don't think that makes up for the vast advantage in "defensive talent" and "defensive athleticism," whatever we want to believe those concepts mean, and it's a bad sign if K can't motivate players to use some effort for more than 3 games in the Olympics.

Some of Rome's ideas in an earlier post would go a long way toward explaining this if true:

I think the problem is multi-part:

1) I think Coach K's style of overplay defense is somewhat outdated. It comes from an era when it was easier to force turnovers and much more handchecking was allowed on the perimeter.

2) This system requires a lot of communication. This makes it particularly hard for freshman to run effectively.

3) The new OAD era puts a lot of freshmen together on a single team.

4) The staff hasn't compensated by adjusting to a more conservative style of defense or recruiting prospects with their defensive abilities in mind.

Lack of cohesiveness/communication among lots of freshmen would also be an issue among lots of NBA players coming together for a few weeks from different systems. It's a combination of slipping/outdated defensive coaching and poor defensive recruiting in terms of finding players who would fit the system, IMO.

 

[CMon85]

So do we blame K for not changing with the times? He can obviously coach defenses because a good defense used to be a staple of old Duke teams. If you couldn't play D for K then you didn't get much playing time.

 

[CMon85]

Duke's defensive rankings since 02:

02-1
03-16
04-3
05-2
06-18
07-5
08-7
09-31
10-5
11-10
12-78
13-26
14-87
15-12
16-86
17-47

02 to 08 are incredible numbers. Only twice were they not a top 10 defensive team and both of those years were still in the top 20.

From 02-08 Duke had a 7.4 defensive ranking. 02 to 11 had a 9.8 defensive ranking. From 2012 to last year, Duke has averaged a defensive ranking around 56. That's absolutely insane to see that big of a drop off. Incredible. Going from an absolute ELITE defensive team for 10 years and then having a fucking atrocious defensive team for 6 straight years. 2015 was weird, I remember that team being ranked in like the 40's before the tournament started and they went on an insane run.

 

[torontoduke]

I think that is fair criticism, to be honest. Like pretty much any Duke fan I love what K has done (at Duke U and with Team USA) and I am impressed he continues to put together teams that are in the mix for tourney runs. I just feel the performance on the defensive end merits the level of criticism here and on other boards.

Does it mean I think he is a bad coach? Certainly not, but I think some types of changes need to be brought about to recover the defensive performance the devils were predominantly known for. K has shown he is not closed to different types of strategies (zone or the pack D used in 2010).

A lot of this I think is incumbent upon his assistants to work with K to make these improvements. It is often mentioned on D-F that you probably can't expect a 70 year old man (who in addition to running the Men's program is being pulled in a million other directions) to have the energy to maintain a standard he set 25 years ago.

I am a big K fan, I just think he needs more help and he probably should heed some of the advice to try and improve defensively.

 

[torontoduke]

I'm forever impressed how effective that '08 team was on D. Pretty much no frontcourt depth.

 

[deepdarkblue]

Yes, I blame K. If you say he hasn't gotten the players he needs to play defense (LOL), that's on him. If you say his defense is too complicated for OADs to learn quickly, that's on him. Any excuse that comes up, the blame still ultimately lies with K.

 

[deepdarkblue]

I think that is fair criticism, to be honest. Like pretty much any Duke fan I love what K has done (at Duke U and with Team USA) and I am impressed he continues to put together teams that are in the mix for tourney runs. I just feel the performance on the defensive end merits the level of criticism here and on other boards.

Does it mean I think he is a bad coach? Certainly not, but I think some types of changes need to be brought about to recover the defensive performance the devils were predominantly known for. K has shown he is not closed to different types of strategies (zone or the pack D used in 2010).

A lot of this I think is incumbent upon his assistants to work with K to make these improvements. It is often mentioned on D-F that you probably can't expect a 70 year old man (who in addition to running the Men's program is being pulled in a million other directions) to have the energy to maintain a standard he set 25 years ago.

I am a big K fan, I just think he needs more help and he probably should heed some of the advice to try and improve defensively.

I feel like it's a matter of arrogance leading to complacency. "This is how I've always done it. I'm the great and mighty K, have you seen my rings?"

 

[CMon85]

I think the "his defense is too complicated for freshmen" is a lame excuse. Personally, I think the times have changed and he's adapted everywhere else, but not defensively. I also don't think he recruits the right kids to play the STYLE of defense he wants. Most of the guys could be plugged in on any other team and play capable defense(except Luke), but K's defense puts them in vulnerable positions. This is the first year in a while I'm truly expecting a top 20 defense because he has the FC length and depth to play overplay.

 

[Slap the Floor]

So do we blame K for not changing with the times? He can obviously coach defenses because a good defense used to be a staple of old Duke teams. If you couldn't play D for K then you didn't get much playing time.

There is nothing wrong with the scheme in relation to the times.